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| Volume 8 Number 72 | Thu Dec 31 23:55:02 US/Pacific 1998 |
From: faigin@polaris.pacificnet.net (Daniel P. Faigin) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 16:35:57 -0800 Subject: Administrivia: Happy New Year I'd like to wish everyone on the list a happy new year. The volume on the list this year has been quite lower, but I think we've been having some good discussions (the current one on sexual ethics is quite interesting). I'd like to take this time to remind folks that, to help support list operation, and to provide support for Jewish networking on Shamash, I request a small voluntary subscription fee of US $5.00 per volume year from those subscribers that find the list of value. Checks made payable to "Daniel P. Faigin" in US Dollars should be sent to: Daniel Faigin c/o Adrian Faigin 26861 Trabuco Road #E-65 Mission Viejo CA 92691-3535 If you are a new subscriber to this list, you may treat the list as shareware. Try a few issues to determine if the list is for you. If it is, and you can financially afford the $5 fee, please send it in. If it isn't for you, or you can't swing the fee at this time, don't sweat it. At the present time, I do not plan to drop any subscribers for non-payment. This fee is prorated on a quarterly basis as follows: Payment Date Fee Payment Date Fee 7/1-9/30 $5.00 1/1-3/31 $2.50 10/1-12/31 $3.75 4/1-6/30 $1.25 Due to the complications of collecting non-US currencies, the voluntary fee does not apply to non-US subscribers. If you really want to contribute, contact me and we'll work something out :-). Daniel
From: faigin@polaris.pacificnet.net (Daniel P. Faigin) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 16:40:13 -0800 Subject: Administrivia: Reactions to Post on Spousal Abuse Jeanette's post in v8n71 appears to have struck a nerve. In this issue we have a few (long) posts from members of the Orthodox community in reaction. Whatever your opinion of the Orthodoxy community, I suggest you read through them, for they have important information on the Orthodox reation to Spousal and Child Abuse in those communities. By the way, I think this is an excellent discussion, although perhaps a bit provacative. I hope others agree, and will chime in with your undestanding of the Jewish position on these issues.
From: Sheldon Hanft <hanfts@conrad.appstate.edu> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:12:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Jewish Divorce I would like to suggest that a crucial factor in the high, 50% range, of divorce among Jews and Gentiles is revealed by the nearly 90% re-marriage rate. If we accept that the ideal mate for child rearing and career development which we seek in our late teens and early twenties is quite different from the mate who hope to share our sunset years with, it is not surprising that so many people make a mid-life "correction." Given that the the divorce rate has risen virtually in tandem with the increased life expectancy (from the late 40's during WWI to nearly 80 as we approach a new century) is it so surprising that 1/2 of us at the end of our vocational career & child rearing, would seek different partner for our "golden years?" Unquestionably there are abusive and/or disrespectful spouses, couples who do not make serious efforts to grow together rather than apart, but we need not go off and castigate the different sexes, or Jewish denominations, as the root cause of the high divorce rate. It is as probable that it results as much from longevity and the riches of choice in our affluennt society. It hits older women more forcefully than older men because older women live longer and perhaps lonlier lives. Rather than blaming our religious values and traditions for the high divorce, let us study them more closely so we can reinforce those which are more nurturing of both spouses and of the institution of marriage so we can encourage Jews of all denominations to strengthen their marital arrangements and strengthen our co-religionists as well as our religious and social communities so they become both pious and pleasant. Sheldon Hanft (Hanfts@Appstate.edu)
From: Ed St. Clair <ramled@fone.net> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:30:26 -0700 Subject: Jewish Divorce Rate: 50%??? In V8N51, Jeanette Friedman shows Jewish divorce rate at almost 50%. What is the basis for this assertion? Here in Pueblo, Colorado, where we have lived for the past 18 1/2 years, with two small congregations, there has been only one divorce. That would make our rate somewhere between 1 and 2 percent. Are we an abnormally within the Greater Jewish Community, or despite our smallness and isolation, is life in a small community better for Jews? Hmm! Ed
From: Sheldon L. Glickler <sheldong@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:11:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Jewish Sexual Ethics & the Jewish Press Jeanette Friedman wrote what seems like a bitter autobiography relative to her marriage. All I can say for her situation is "Whew! I really do feel sorry for her". However, it is clear that all the other people are also living at "ground zero", and very many among us have long standing, good (though non-idyllic) marriages. She made one point that is absolutely correct. That is, you must respect and love yourself before you can really do it for others. Once you are comfortable with yourself, it becomes much easier to accommodate and accept non-perfection in others. One point she made I will totally disagree with. No matter how many technicolor images there on TV, a sound, respectful, loving relationship at home will put all that other nonsense in its proper perspective. If a child does not see abuse in the home, he/she will be _very_ unlikely to be abusive to his/her mate -- and vice versa, no matter what is on TV. The key is the home environment. Shelly
From: Michael Horowitz <michaelh1@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 04:18:24 PST Subject: Re: Property Rights and Pilagshot Jeanette writes (in one post) > That's because until very recently, in the dirty mean world I live in, men > were taught to disrespect women in yeshiva, women were trained in Beis Yakov > to be serfs (see Distant Sister, Jason Aaronson)... (in another post) > In the Agudah community I came from, I had to fight my grandmother not to > have my head. I had no property rights, I couldn't get a get. I was beaten > regularly, as were my brothers (and besides my parents, their teachers hit > them plenty). Mordechai notes A few notes, if you were beaten by your parents that wasn't halacha that was abuse. Child abuse is not sanctioned by halacha. Neither is spousal abuse. Next time I get a Jewish Observer, (I'm out of town) I will post numbers of spousal abuse lines sponsored and promoted by the Orthodox Jewish community. If anyone on this list needs to get out of an abusive relationship do so today, even if it means going to a non Jewish shelter. Email me and I will make a few l-d calls and find what Jewish support is out there for you. As far as shaving your head. It is not a mainstream Aguda practice. Indeed it is groups like Satmar that do that. Where it probably comes from is an attempt to protect the women in Hungary from rape. The idea originally was to shave their heads to make them unattractive to the Christian rapist. Since then it seems to have taken a life of its own. To driving cars. I know nothing of the Kiryas Joel community, but for the rest of Orthodoxy I have never heard of such a thing. It is not a normative practice on Modern Orthodoxy, the Chassidic or Yeshivish worlds. Indeed the more right wing worlds where men study for several years while married such a rule would be impossible. The women generally are the earners in the family. Which BTW, means in case of divorce, it is the man who would be left with no means of support not the women. The opposite of the traditional sexist bogeyperson. When I get back to Florida next month I have a shidduch date arranged with a young woman who is a Beis Yaakov graduate. She is also a computer programmer. >From talking with her on the phone, she is a bright independant thinker. Serf is not a word I would use to describe her. Which is good because when I have described my ideal bashert to my friend who fixed us up, I told him that I need a woman who will stand up to me. (I'm a stubborn mule and need to be kicked in the head now and then.) >From reading your posts it seems that Jeanette unfortunately grew up in a horrible abusive family background that bears no relationship to normative halachic behavior. To judge Orthodoxy by it, would be if I judged Reform Judaism by the criminal who was the driving force behind my parent's Reform synagogue( He made his millions in mail fraud) Somehow I doubt the Reform members of this list would like hearing statements that all Reform Jews are crooks because of this man. The same logic applies to rejecting the image of Orthodox Jews and Judaism and abusive because of Jeanette's horrible upbringing.
From: Yaakov Menken <menken@torah.org> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 18:02:09 -0500 Subject: Property Rights and Pilagshot I would like to respond to both of the posts by Jeanette Friedman. I think it is important that we empathize with the pain of each individual, and it is obvious that Jeanette has endured many bitter experiences. At the same time, we must recognize that such pain clouds a person's judgment, and thus the individual suffering great emotional pain can give over an extremely distorted picture of a community to others who are not familiar with it. I am not Chassidic. My family's practices are quite different from those which Jeanette describes/challenges/attacks in her post. But nonetheless it has been my privilege to know quite a number of Chassidic families, and I have had the opportunity to observe "up close." >From her posts, one could come away with the impression that at least in some Orthodox communities, the divorce rate or the rate of premarital sex approaches that of the U.S. general population. In my experiences I have never heard a divorce rate of over 10% even mentioned with respects to any Orthodox community. All of the factors mitigate _against_ premarital sex, especially among Chassidim -- besides all the lessons about avoiding it, those who want to ignore those lessons must find a willing partner. Similarly, I have found no community which could be accused of a rate of child abuse approaching the rate in the US at large -- Jeanette's individual case notwithstanding. Fortunately in a society with many children per family, roaming from home to home at will to play with friends, a tragedy of this nature can often be detected early on. The Orthodox also now have a considerable infrastructure in their larger communities to help women and children, and an informal network as well -- my wife and I recently helped extract a friend of hers from a bad marriage (with abuse which was more emotional than physical), and at least three or four other Rabbis were involved in helping her to leave. So much for the idea that the Rabbis circle around the husband! If it were happening frequently, we as a community would know. Certainly women are not regarded as cattle or property, or anything other than human beings. On the contrary, many non-Orthodox women have commented that the Orthodox men they speak to are uniquely willing to address their minds and disregard their bodies. For this reason among others, Orthodox outreach institutes often find themselves with many more single women than men coming through the door. Nor have I found a community where the women could be described as "serfs." The local Bais Yaakov, for example, prides itself on maintaining academic standards in secular studies equal or superior to those of other schools in the area, despite an intense Jewish studies curriculum. The SAT scores they produce show no compromise. The Chassidic lifestyle is different, but not _that_ different. These women come out ready to be servants of G-d, but hardly serfs to man. Two Jews, three opinions -- and yet Chassidic girls are supposed to have none at all? Now Jeanette goes further -- she also seems to accuse her former community of taking her child away. I am not aware of any religious court, anywhere, which recommends that the father have custody in the majority of cases. Just the opposite, maternal custody is the norm. We do not know the details of her unique and painful experience. Furthermore, religious courts have no power to determine child custody -- they can make recommendations, which are then accepted or discarded by a judge in a secular Family Court who makes the determination. It is not within the power of any community, of whatever religion or ethnicity, to take anyone's child in this country without finding members thereof facing kidnapping charges. I am troubled that in her pain, Jeanette chose to compare a Jewish religious practice to what Nazis did. The "rules of coexistence" under "words of incitement" should preclude that sort of speech. Most Orthodox women drive, keep their own hair (often nicely covered), and hold positions of religious leadership in far higher proportion than those in non-Orthodox communities. In some Chassidic circles, married women and _all_ men shave their heads (except on those parts of the head where it is Halachically forbidden for a man to do so). So the men theoretically get the worse end of the deal -- but must we look at Jewish practices with so shallow an outlook? Neither side of the gender equation is getting 'unequal' treatment -- both are serving G-d in a way that gives them spiritual uplift, as we might say on this list. That is their way, that is their lifestyle. And I have found a great deal which is personally inspiring in their communities and their homes. But where I believe we must draw the line is when someone in pain lashes out at someone _else_ with great intensity, and with no known basis. She writes that the Ungvar Rav, Menashe Klein, engaged in a "pimping service" and that she called Morgenthau (NYC's DA) to have it shut down. This is an incredibly strong allegation against Rabbi Klein, and one which we are Halachically prohibited to believe or even to grant the least credence, without proof. "If you think I'm lying, call the DA" is not proof -- it is calling Rabbi Klein guilty until proven innocent. Who is up for calling the DA? Any volunteers to hold the line for 42 minutes? That's not the way it works. It is, rather, incumbent upon Jeanette to provide a docket number, names of some of the other parties involved, etc. _before_ we take this as anything other than defamation. I should point out that two years ago, there was a false report that the Orthodox community harbored pilagshot unveiled with much fanfare in the Jewish Week. At that time, several Orthodox activists made repeated efforts to inquire of the writer (or anyone else) so that they might unearth evidence of even a single pilegesh. Nothing doing. The reporter had apparently bought a line from a so-called "anonymous source," and it became well-known among the Orthodox that the reporter had written a story fabricated from whole cloth (not that the reporter necessarily did the weaving, but he printed it without checking carefully). Jeanette's "reminder" is news to me -- I never heard this before. And apparently no one else did either. Why has this _never_ been publicized before? Why did the Jewish Week not defend itself with reference to court documents and indictments, when throughout the Orthodox community the paper's name was associated with [yet another!] false, negative portrayal of an Orthodox community? It is certainly prudent, and clearly mandated by Jewish ethical laws, that we set aside this story until she proves it. And all streams of Judaism appreciate the importance of our ethical laws. Yaakov Menken
From: Chaim Frazer <frazerch@carroll.com> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 18:16:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Property Rights and Pilagshot In Volume 8: Number 71 Jeanette Friedman writes of the horrors of her personal experience (and that of her family members) of spouse and child abuse. Since Jeanette left the Orthodox community some time ago, she and other MLJ readers may not be aware of the vigorous efforts undertaken by all major American Orthodox communal organizations to combat such incidents and to bring aid and comfort to those who have suffered. A partial list of initiatives undertaken by Agudath Israel of America, the National Council of Young Israel, and the Orthodox Union includes: 1. Establishment of local, regional, and national toll-free hot lines staffed 24 hours a day (except, of course for the Sabbath and Jewish Holidays) which victims of spouse and/or child abuse can call at any time for immediate assistance on a confidential basis, or to which other parties aware of such problems can report them. 2. Training of mikvah supervisors and attendants to recognize signs of physical abuse, and establishment of local parties to whom they can either report such incidents themselves or to whom they can refer suspected victims. Mental health services for such victims are also available at little or no cost. (Although designed to take into account the special needs of Orthodox victims, these and all other Orthodox-sponsored support and assistance services, especially including the hot lines, are available to any Jew who wishes to use them.) 3. Training programs and provision of mental health consultants for congregational Rabbanim and Yeshiva administrators, faculty, and support personnel. 4. Sponsoring lectures and seminars on spouse and child abuse in the context of synagogue and other community-based adult education programs. 5. Inclusion of material on spouse abuse and identifying the potential for same in the curricula of high schools. (For example, the "Beit Yaacov" type high school that my daughter attends includes this in its mandatory classes for seniors.) 6. Heavily and continuously publicizing the existence of the resources available to anyone currently either a victim (in terms of remediation), or is "at-risk" (in terms of preventing such incidents). The principal means of publicity include, but are not limited to, the major national publications of each organization ("The Jewish Observer" for Agudath Israel of America, "Viewpoint" for the National Council of Young Israel, and "Jewish Action" for the Orthodox Union.) This is, of course, an excruciatingly sensitive problem. It is very tempting either to attempt to sweep it under the table, or to try not give fodder to our critics by keeping everything as quiet as possible. Instead, the Orthodox community as a whole has chosen to put forth strong and public efforts to sensitize all our members to the reality of such problems, and to provide assistance to those suffering or "at-risk" of suffering. If nothing else, Orthodoxy as a whole should be commended for addressing these matters openly, clearly, and forthrightly. It is not that we believe that we have an epidemic of such situations, especially by comparison to the general society as a whole. Rather we have, and shall continue to have, zero tolerance for not doing everything possible to prevent such problems from arising, while we also are determined to assist those suffering in any way possible. Chaim Frazer "Most people would rather die than think-and most people do."-Bertrand Russell
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