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| Volume 8 Number 58 | Wed Nov 25 23:55:01 US/Pacific 1998 |
From: toramada@netvision.net.il Date: Tue, 24 Nov 98 16:07:54 PST Subject: Eco-Judaism and Kibbutz Lotan Richard Schwartz <SCHWARTZ@POSTBOX.CSI.CUNY.EDU> writes: [del: Dr. Richard's list of why raising/eating beef is bad] While I respect Dr. Richard's zeal and honest concern, we disagree on basic issues that he raises. I have discussed this at length in the past, if I recall correctly there should be such a discussion in the MLJ archives. In any case, I don't wish to repeat previous arguments. To summarize, IMHO, instead of calling people not to eat beef, there should be a call to people to change the methods of raising beef to self-sustainable methods which not only don't harm the environment - but may actually (and can!) contribute to a well balanced environment. As such methods are good at present, only for limited size of stock, research should be conducted to solve existing problems. Shoshana [Moderator's Note: Past discussions on Vegetarianism may be found in: v4n15, v4n16, v4n17, v4n19, v5n130, v5n132, v5n182, v5n183, v6n37, v6n39:v6n44. To retrieve back issues, send a message consisting of the command "send vxny", where vxny is replaced by a space-separated list of issues, to faigin@shamash.org. Alternatively, you may visit our web site at http://www.pacificnet.net/~faigin/MLJ/]
From: Scott Ryan <jscottr@matinfo.com> Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:27:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Judaism and Vegetarianism Richard Schwartz's objections to the eating of meat on the basis of human health concerns and the mistreatment of animals may be well-founded as far as they go. But they offer no objection in principle to human consumption of meat. While Jewish tradition does indeed forbid the infliction of needless pain on animals, that same tradition says just as firmly that eating the meat of animals raised as livestock is not only permissible (on the conditions that the animals are well-treated and slaughtered painlessly, and that their meat is not treyf) but a perfectly legitimate and good human practice. Indeed, the concept of "tikkun olam," in its original context, was based on the Kabbalistic idea that a divine spark had been hidden in everything in the shattering act of Creation, and that those sparks are raised by putting those things to their _legitimate_ human uses (i.e. in accordance with the mitzvot). Using animals as meat was regarded as a way of "raising their sparks." We humans, bearers of the divine tzelem, were regarded as the legitimate stewards of creation, completing/repairing it through our own activities, including activities undertaken on behalf of our own well-being. This sort of tikkun is a far cry from more recent views that treat us as interlopers visiting our depredations upon a sacred "natural" order. The more traditional view is that domestication by human beings _is_ the "natural" order of the world, and our job is to bring that order about. And again, as I noted in an earlier post, most of the animals we consume (indeed, many of the _species_ we consume) would simply not exist but for us. Richard also levels unsubstantiated charges that agricultural practices are environmentally destructive and economically wasteful. Since he does not support these charges in any way, it is sufficient here to say merely that I disagree. (In any event, objections to specific agricultural practices, even if well-founded, are not objections to _eating_ meat.) Finally, he writes: >While Judaism stresses that we are to assist the poor and share our bread >with hungry people, over 70% of the grain grown in the United States is fed >to animals destined for slaughter (it takes 8 to 12 pounds of grain to >produce one pound of edible beef), while an estimated 20 million people >worldwide die because of hunger and its effects each year. As for the charge that 70% of U.S. grain is fed to meat animals: much of that grain is unsuitable for human consumption anyway, and much of the land on which it is grown is unsuitable for growing other crops (which is largely why it isn't used for those crops _now_). The vast majority of the "grain" in question is simply feed corn; it would not exist in such quantity apart from the raising of livestock, and there is no reason to think that the marginal land on which it is grown would otherwise be devoted to raising vegetables suitable for humans. As for world hunger: Richard's floating statistic recalls the old standard that the U.S. consumes "resources" in vast disproportion to its population. But in both cases, that is because we _produce_ them as well. The impediments to economic prosperity in other parts of the world are real, and they are in principle eliminable. But we in the U.S. do not steal the food we eat from anyone else's mouths; our gains are not someone else's losses; our refraining from consuming meat (or any other good or "resource") would not in and of itself provide a speck of additional food to anyone anywhere else on the globe. The long-term solution to the hunger problem is to extend to the rest of the world the same economic liberty that made our own prosperity possible. Surely this aim is consonant with the Rambam's view that the very highest form of tzedakah is to help the needy become self-sufficient. In summary, Richard's arguments offer no objection in principle to the eating of meat by Jews or anyone else. Even if they were sound, which some of them are not, they would call at most for a reduction of our meat consumption, not for its elimination. L'shalom, Scott Ryan home: SandGRyan@worldnet.att.net work: JScottR@matinfo.com
From: Rick Dinitz <dinitz@tibco.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:20:18 -0800 Subject: Mishnah Hodu [Tractate Thanksgiving] Mishnah Hodu Excerpts from Tractate Thanksgiving Newly-translated fragments from the Chelm Genizah Copyright 1997, Rick Dinitz Hodu lAdoshem ki tov. [(Eating) turkey for (the sake of) Hashem is good.] -Tehillim Perek Heh, Mishnah Aleph Hodu lAdoshem ki tov -- keitzad. [Waving turkey (during Hallel) -- how is it done]? They take the arba minim [four kinds] together -- turkey, cranberry, corn and squash -- and wave them east, south, west, north, up and down. Rabbi Yose says: When (does this apply)? When everyone in the congregation has a good sense of humor. Rabbi Tarfon says: When everyone in the congregation is a good juggler. Perek Heh, Mishnah Bet How much do they wave (what is the minimum)? Bet Shammai say: Turkey, all of it; cranberry, one kav; corn, one stalk; squash, one vine. Bet Hillel say: Turkey, one limb; cranberry, one berry; corn, one kernel; squash, one squashel. Rabbi Akiva says: let him wave whatever he has. Perek Heh, Mishnah Gimel They take them together -- keitzad [how is it done]? Bet Hillel says: They place them in a basket and wave the basket. Bet Shammai says: They stuff the three inside the turkey and wave the turkey. Rabbi Yehoshua says: the stuff all four inside a pita, and wave the pita. Rabbi Akiva says: They eat all four, and wave their bodies. Rabbi Tarfon says: It is not up you to finish the eating, but neither are you free to eat nothing -- after all, a person has to eat. Perek Heh, Mishnah Dalet When do they wave? Rabbi Shimon says: like a lulav (at the same times when we would wave a lulav on Sukkot). Rabbi Yose HaGlili says: Through all of Hallel Hagadol -- on each "ki l'olam chasdo" (they wave). Rabbi Akiva says: If so, it how would they digest what they have eaten? (That is, waving the body so many times in rapid sequence after eating a heavy meal is bound to cause trouble.) They said to him: They do not eat until after the earliest time for Minchah (which is after Hallel). Rabbi Yehoshua says: In the Galil I saw that when they sing "Noten lechem l'chol basar" [God gives bread for all flesh] they eat the sandwich of turkey in pita. Perek Heh, Mishnah Heh Heh Heh Until when do they wave? Chamishi. [(only on) Thursday; alternatively, chamesh, for five days]. Shammai says: Me-Hodu ad Kush. (That is, they continue waving until Purim.) Rabbi Eliezer says: When (does this apply)? Only to the king. Shene'emar [as it is said]: Melech me-Hodu ad Kush. Everyone else waves only for one day, but all eat leftover turkey until it is finished. Rabbi Shimon says: L'olam [forever] (that is, they never stop waving). Shene'emar: Hodu lAdoshem ki tov, ki l'olam chasdo. But the sages say: If he waves it chutz lizmano [beyond the appointed time], pasul le'echol [it is unfit to eat]. Perek Zayin, Mishnah Gimel What kind of squash? Rabbi says: Zucchini. Rabban Gamliel says: En zaken b'Cheshvan [nobody (harvests) zucchini in (the month of) Cheshvan]. The sages say: Don't read "zucchini" -- but rather "zaken" [an old squash]. Perek Zayin, Mishnah Dalet Cranberry relish and cranberry sauce, kasher [it is fit for waving]. But cranberry juice, cranberry jelly, or cranberry cobbler, pasul [it is not fit]. Corn soup, popcorn, and caramel corn, kasher. But cornbread is pasul, because of the flour. Corndogs are pasul, because of the dog. (Presumably this kind of dog lacks either fins or scales.) Resh Lakish says: With pumpkin pie, kasher. His son says: My mother would make pareve pumpkin pie for the waving. Perek Yod, Mishnah Vav Rabban Gamliel says: Squash I understand, but what are turkey, cranberry and corn? They said to him: Corn -- I'm all ears. Cranberry -- don't get bogged down in such details. Turkey -- (this refers to an) am haaretz [unlearned person]. He (Rabban Gamliel) said to them: Whoever cannot explain these three things has not fulfilled their obligation. But the sages say: The Torah is a Torah for all times and all lands (that is, when God will reveal these foods to us, we will know the halachah for what to do with them). Kakatuv: v'alchalta, v'savata, uverachta. [As it is written: You'll eat, and you'll be satisfied, and you'll bless] Kol tuv, -Rick <dinitz@tibco.com> Copyright 1997, Rick Dinitz
From: Jerry Blaz <ffdog@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:44:25 -0800 Subject: Re: Reform View of Talmud Pastor James P.S. Templeton said on Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:55:52: >I would very much like to know the view of Reform Jews on the Jerusalem >Talmud and Babylonian Talmud. James Templeton The Talmud, in both the Jerusalem and the Babylonian versions, is integral to all rabbinic religious perception. The Talmud, in both the Jerusalem and Babylonian editions, share a common inspiration and build on the same early rabbinic document, the Mishneh, which intreprets the written Torah. The Mishneh, with the respective Gemara sections of the Jerusalem and the Babylonian versions, comprise the principle part of what constitutes the oral Torah. There are, of course, other commentaries and adjudications which are also considered to be a part of the oral Torah. Where Reform differs from the more traditional forms of rabbinical Judaism is regarding the obligation of the legal parts of torah to bind Jews and demand a particular conformation to these legal or halaxic portions. The important aspect of the accepting of the Talmud by the rabbis in Judaism was establishment of the historical principle of exegetical Judaism over literal or fundamentalist toranic understanding. Jerry Blaz ffdog@earthlink.net
From: Julian Yudelson <YUDELSON.JE@a1.isc.rit.edu> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 20:00:49 -0800 Subject: Web Resource: Internet Family Education I just saw a new offering listed on JCN18.com that might be of interest to some of the MLJ reader. The opening blurb sounds right on target for Liberal Jewish families. Mishpacha is for parents who find that what they learned as Sunday school students is not enough to raise a Jewish family. It is nondenominational, nonjudgemental, ineractive, and egalitarian. Check it out at WWW.mispacha.org kal Israel chaverim, and one gantza mispacha too. Julian Yudelson
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