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| Volume 4 Number 116 | Wed Feb 8 0:11:25 1995 |
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 95 14:58:38 PST From: Your Moderator Subject: Administrivia: Moderator Travel For those that are interested, I'm going to be in the Raleigh-Durham area from the evening of 2/12 to the afternoon of 2/17, on business. If members of the list in that area want to get together one night for dinner, please drop me Email. Daniel
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 11:37:22 -0800 From: Philip Borenstein <philip@world.std.com> Subject: Bat Mitzvah Ideas for Older Woman? My mother has decided to have a bat mitzvah. One of the reasons she wants to do this is to claim a part of her heritage she feels has been denied to her. She says, "Do you know that I'm 52 years old and I have never seen the inside of a Torah? I've never been at the bimah during a service." I'm looking for modern rituals, readings, and gift ideas (a pen and pencil set?). I seem to recall that bat mitzvahs like this are not unusual in some liberal synagogues. [Before people comment, let me clarify what I believe the question is. Every turns bar/bat mitzvah when the reach the appropriate age. For various reasons, some people don't have a ceremony at the time (for example, I've never had such a ceremony). Often, as adults, their connection to Judaism deepens and they want such a ceremony to acknowledge this. In traditional congregations, I would presume this would be done with a simple aliyah during a shabbat service. In Reform congregations, the "adult bar mitzvah" program usually leads the adults to a group ceremony at a particular shabbat. Often, the adult program is more rigorous than the normal (13 year old) program, as it requires more intensive study as well as community work. -- Yr. Mod.]
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 16:32:47 -0800 From: David Philips <DNPhilips@aol.com> Subject: Beruriah "It is not our task as liberal Jews to complain about the orthodox attitude or to be bullied by it, but rather to choose our legitimate path according to the inner logic and development of liberal Judaism" -- Rabbi Walter Jacob Marshall Kragen <mkragen@access.digex.net> softens the story of Beruriah, for which I give him thanks. On the other hand, the orthodox Moshe Shulman (mshulman@ix.netcom.com) hardens the story, as follows (he first quotes Marshall): [Marshall:] [the Rabbi asked:] >>"What is the direction for Lod?" [Beruriah told him he need only] say "Lod >>-which way", adding that one should not talk too much to women. This was her >>way of putting down those that claim that women are more talkative than >>women and that men actually are seeking to consort with women. [then Moshe asserts:] > Actually that is not correct. This shows her piety in not talking to men > because they were forbidden to talk with her. Actually, Moshe is not correct. His interpretation (that this story shows her piety) is the interpretation of the Rabbis of the Talmud (and since), and that is the reason (Thank G-d!) that they have allowed this story to be transmitted down to us. As liberal Jews, who though respectful, are not _bound_ by the orthodox tradition, we can interpret it differently if we wish, as Marshall (or was it Elie Wiesel?) did. Our interpretation should be grounded on learning and the tradition, certainly, but also on our principles, which include generosity, tolerance, and a belief that the world, and Judaism, has advanced* since the days of Meir and Beruriah. And even since the Vilner Gaon and the Baal Shem Tov. To a Liberal Jew, it seems very difficult to imagine that Beruriah used without sarcasm the maxim of the Sages of the Talmud that seems, on its face, perhaps the most mysogynistic: "All the time that a man spends in lengthy discourse with a woman, he causes evil unto himself and idles away precious time from the study of the Law, and his end shall be that he shall inherit Hell." (Pirkei Avot 1:5, Leo Aurbach's verbose translation, not meant for women.) Or as Moshe says "they were forbidden to talk with her." The Orthodox tradition is that Beruriah said "Speak briefly with women," and illustrated the rule with an example _ad absurdum_, and did so without a trace of sarcasm in her heart (but only piety). This from the one woman in the Talmud with whom it was most definitely NOT a waste of time to engage in conversation, if your aim was the study of the Law. This from the woman whom the Sages of her day not only spoke to, but quoted. At length. I demur. Unless Moshe can offer more support for the idea that Beruriah did believe women's conversation was a waste of time, I will remain unconvinced. (Note that Rashi has her killing herself when her womanly "light-headedness" is "proven." It seems Rashi saw her as believing the think processes of women should be taken seriously.) We liberals reclaim this story as our own: "When a woman rose up that could discourse and dispute with the Sages, we KNOW she knew how to make fun of their low opinion of women's role vis a vis the Law. How could it be otherwise? And when women of this generation, finally given access to Talmud in all its depth, rise up to dispute the Law of Divorce, and the prejudice against their saying Kaddish, they too, even when they fail, will be funny." b'Shalom David Philips East Wenatchee Washington. *How damaged our belief in Progress has been since Hiroshima and the Holocaust would be a good subject for us to discuss on Tisha B'Av, as Arthur Waskow has suggested, but is another subject.
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 09:00:07 -0800 From: Monica Devens <mdevens@svpal.org> Subject: Ha'amada - Does anyone know what this is? A friend of mine recently told me of a ceremony new to me - ha'amada (with an ayin) - required in Israel of couples whose original marriage ceremony is later deemed null by the rabbinic authorities. As it was described, this couple not only had to be married again, but they also had to participate in the wedding ceremony of another couple, a couple chosen at random, where this being-married-again couple had to stand up (hence ha'amada) behind the bride and groom as a kind of shadow bride and groom. Has anyone heard of this? Can anyone explain the rationale behind this arrangement? Thanks in advance!! Monica Devens
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 09:09:29 -0800 From: Mark Goldhaber <MHG01%ALBNYDH2.bitnet@uacsc2.albany.edu> Subject: Jewish plays and musicals In a side comment in V4N114, our friendly moderator made reference to the play "To Live Another Summer, To Pass Another Winter". Our Temple has a very active theater group which does two or three Jewish-themed and other shows a year. (We're doing "Arsenic and Old Lace" this coming weekend.) For a few years, I've been trying to find out who has the rights to "To Live Another Summer, To Pass Another Winter" because I think that it would be a great show for us to do, but to no avail. Does anyone out there know who we can contact? In addition, does anyone know of any other quality Jewish-themed plays or musicals? We've already done "Fiddler on the Roof" and "Two By Two", and are considering an attempt at "Beau Jest" in the near future. [Yet another area of interest of mine. Two other Jewish-oriented or themed musicals that I am aware of are The Rothschilds (Bock/Harnick), and Joseph and his Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat (Rice/Webber). -- Yr. Mod.] (As a side note, while I've been a lurker on the list for a few months, I have enjoyed reading the various points of view -- though not always agreeing with them, and sometimes getting angry at them -- and have found the list very educational. I thank all contributors for enriching my education and I hope to have more to contribute myself in the future.) Mark Goldhaber mhg01@albnydh2.bitnet .or. markg42@aol.com
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 16:32:55 -0800 From: David Philips <DNPhilips@aol.com> Subject: Orthodox Women Posters Does anyone on this list know of any othodox women who would be willing to post the orthodox position on the role of women on this list? Or the orthodox position on anything? It would be more persuasive to hear how respected and worthwhile women are treated in orthodox communities/relationships if the poster was a women. I know, I have occaionally been speaking for liberal women, and may therefore seem hypocritical. But I am truly interested in a _female_ orthodox perspective. b'Shalom David Philips East Wenatchee, WA
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 11:27:46 -0800 From: Jeff Cohen <JC924@finabus.fab.albany.edu> Subject: Reconservadox I am very interested in the comments made by Rabbi Stern in issue 4-114 where he says: > Beth Shalom is, as my rabbi Larry Kushner would say, Reconservadox: a bit of > everything that makes it a post-denominational synagogue. Which, it seems > to me, is the future of American Jewry -- there will be traditional shuls -- > and then there will be Reconservadox shuls propagating liberal Judaism. Our Reform congregation is currently struggling with the question of how to support diversity in religious preferences within a single congregation without alienating anyone. How can a congregation meet everyone's needs without making some people feel uncomfortable? I think this is one of the primary issues facing Liberal Judaism as we enter this "post-denominational" era. I would like to see an extended discussion of this topic on this list, since it is so important to the future of Liberal Judaism. Our congregation is a old Reform congregation (affiliating with UAHC in 1907) and many of our congregants feel most comfortable with more "classical" Reform practice. On the other hand, a smaller but growing number of congregants are seeking a more spiritual and creative religious experience with more traditional observances. How can these two needs be met in the same congregation? I know that some congregations have "classical" services on Friday nights and more "traditional" services on Saturday mornings. Isn't this a form of segregation and can you still say they are both in the same congregation just because they are both in the same building? That doesn't seem to me to be the best solution. Does anyone else have some other ideas? Jeffrey M. Cohen E-mail: JC924@ALBANY.EDU
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 08:43:34 -0800 From: James F Greenwald <HYFLY1@aol.com> Subject: The Role of Women in Orthodoxy david@porsche.visix.com (David Charlap) writes that Judaism assigns certain obligations to men and other obligations to women. I infer from that that women should not feel left out just because they do not make up a minyan or have aliyot in the service. If that interpretation is correct, then I don't understand why women are not permitted to assume additional obligations if they so desire. After all, lots of men enjoy the mikve on Friday afternoon, although I am not aware of any obligation that they do so. If women are willing to participate more fully in the previously all male aspects of Jewish ritual, they should be permitted to do so. Having said all that, I have to admit that I still feel uncomfortable whenever a woman is called to the bimah. For some reason, it seems that the women upset the rythm of the service. It's hard to describe, but it's almost as if women have to make a big production out of what was traditionally a quickly mumbled Barachu. Although my own theology is much closer to conservative--reconstructionist, I prefer to attend orthodox services. This is one of the reasons.
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 11:14:20 -0800 From: Constance Stillinger <cas@ockham.stanford.edu> Subject: The Role of Women in Orthodoxy bottero@oce.orst.edu (Joseph Bottero) wrote: > Looking through posts by Moshe Shulman and Yacov Menken this past week on > the status of women in Orthodoxy, I have to conclude that these two are > admitting that while Orthodoxy is not egalitarian, men and women are equal > in the Orthodox system. This is newspeak. "Equal", "equality", and > "egalitarian" all refer to the same concept. It's not that simple. Who is more important on a baseball team, the pitcher or the catcher? ---they're both indispensible. But are their roles identical? No. A major challenge confronting American Orthodoxy today is how to handle the tension between assigning different roles to people without diminishing the value of the people who carry out those roles. Unfortunately we *don't* get to choose many of our roles---I'd have loved it if my husband were the one who got miserably sick with pregnancy and then nursed every few hours for over a year, so I could stay on the career fast-track, but we didn't have that choice. Orthodoxy, for all the sexist baggage it carries, has the virtue of proactively and enthusiastically accomodating the unique demands of motherhood. Orthodoxy walks the walk, even though it may not talk the talk. Regards, Connie Dr. Constance A. (Chana) Stillinger cas@csli.stanford.edu Research Coordinator, Education Program for Gifted Youth Stanford University http://kanpai.stanford.edu/epgy/pamph/pamph.html
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 15:05:54 -0800 From: David Philips <DNPhilips@aol.com> Subject: The Role of Women in Orthodoxy David Charlap says: >This is where all the confusion lies. [Orthodox] Judaism has no rights or >priviledges for anyone. Nowhere in the Talmud will you find any discussion >about anybody's "right" to do anything. I think David is right. But, as we liberal Jews are reclaiming practice (David's obligations) and see no point in depriving a woman of a valuable practice (like saying Kaddish) because it is not her 'obligation,' or because 'she doesn't have to.' What to David, bound by the Yoke of the Law, is an obligation, to a liberal Jew is a privilege, honor, or opportunity. We don't adopt a practice if it doesn't make us feel closer to Jews and Judaism. "Every mitzvah brings one closer to G-d," and, among the orthodox, men get to do more than women, but, among us, women get to do as many as they find valuable. That's why we live in America, and that's why American Judaism is better than Israeli Judaism (hows that for a bomb ... ;-)) [Please take this as a joke, folks. -- Yr. Mod.] b'Shalom David Philips East Wenatchee, WA
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